A Conversation with David Johanson of the New York Dolls

This is the original transcript of the interview, only minor editing has been applied for readability. This has been the basis for articles but has never been published in the original form.
WORTRAUB: How are you doing?
David: No complaints. All the things that I’ve been complaining about, when I really thought about them, they were really irrelevant. *takes on scholarly voice* You know, like Wittgenstein said, in probably his best book, Tractus, about most of the problems in life: if we don’t pose the question, we don’t really have to concern ourselves with the answer. *sophisticatedly sips his tea with lemon in it* Turns out, life is really about itself. Not really about anything else.

WORTRAUB: Well, philosophy is usually about knowing things, isn’t it?
David: Unless it is daoist.

WORTRAUB: Or nihilist?
David: Or nihilist. But in Daoism too, you can forget about things. It is a kind of groovy philosophy. A good pre-verbal philosophy. *laughs*

WORTRAUB: Well, coming to what we are here for. What have you been doing the last thirty years?
David: Reading Schopenhauer. *looks questioningly from under his huge sun glasses* Very wordy book. *laughs*

WORTRAUB: So, you have dabbled into philosophy then?
David: *long drawing of breath* Oh, I dabble into everything. I am a dilletant. No, you mean professionally? For a living?

WORTRAUB: I don’t know, you tell me? Well, the last thing I found out that in the 80s you were doing some lounge music?
David: Yes, I was pioneering the Jon Blues Lounge Movement. Other than that: I paint and I read. I had a band called The Harry Smiths. We were actually just on tour before we were getting back into this thing. They were kind of like an obscurist old blues and Apalachian music band. Mountain music, before Bluegrass. We made a couple of records. I’ve done music consistently since I was twelve, all my life I have done music.

WORTRAUB: Man, after thirty years. Why are you doing this then?
David: Like everything, I kind of fell into it. Morrissey was curating this Meltdown festival in London. They get a rock star to curate two weeks of shows and the rock star brings in what he wants to hear, he books the shows. I doesn’t necessarily have to be music, could be anything. The thing he wanted was the Dolls, because he was a Dolls-Fan. I knew him over the years, and he knew that we were no longer available. But he called anyway because he is persistent if nothing else. He asked me if I wanted to do this and I said *rhetorical pause*: „No! Would you do it? I mean with The Smiths?“ And he was like „no!“, and I said „Hello?“ *throwing in some attitude* And then he said, please think about it. So I thought about it for a couple of days and then I thought it would be nice to get together with Syl and all, so we are gonna do one show and have a couple of laughs. You know, go to a nice hotel in England, like that. So we went and the first show sold out, they had to make two shows. It was a big success and we had so much fucking fun that we thought, well maybe we should do this again. So Morrissey asked us to go up to Manchester and play there with him, then we got calls from Reading and Leeds: the mud baths. We started doing them and thought: hey, this is fun, so let’s keep doing it. Then we thought let’s make a record, because we had written some songs just for the hell of it and they were good songs. Well, I thought they were good.

WORTRAUB: So, have you been in contact with Syl all along?
David: Oh, yeah! He was living in Atlanta but we have always been like … what is the word? … associates. *looks sceptically* Have you ever been married? You ever heard of the expression: it is a loveless marriage? That’s what we have. No! I’m kidding. *looks very straight, not laughing* *breaks out in laughing*

WORTRAUB: Well, that sure is a statement for my story. Usually you get the „we are a family“ crap from bands.
David: Well, this is kind of like a family …

WORTRAUB: … meaning you hate each others guts.
David: *hectic words* We don’t … I don’t think … No, we have a complex relationship, it is … it’s been … *finds his rhythm again* We have known each other for a long time. We have everything that we could possibly have but in one relationship. If you think of all the relationships you have, with all of your friends, and put them on one person. It is kind of like that. It is interesting, keeps things very interesting. We are very creative together, we have this alchemy, so when we get together it is good.

WORTRAUB: When you got back to the studio, at least in regards to the last Dolls album, the technology has progressed a lot. How did you feel the change?
David: We have been on tape too, we recorded on tape when we made this records. They used ProTools and tape. So all the drums and the base is really coming from tape. I am not exactly sure, technically, which went where and what. I am not really good at that. Not much of change for me though. You go into the studio, you make music. We did not use a lot of the toys. It is rock and roll, right? So it swings, right? You can’t use like drum generator machines because that doesn’t swing, that just marches, you know? This has like push and pull. If you put a metronome on at the beginning of the song, you will find that it speeds up and slows down, because it is a human playing the instrument. Which is probably not that popular in todays climate but that’s okay. It is the only way. You can make rock music but to make rock and roll you have to have a good drummer who really is into swinging. You know, it’s funny. When we first made records we really did not care about the prevailing trends, which were probably like Donna Summer at the time. So it wasn’t like we were saying we want to sound like anybody else. We made music for ourselves and we really sounded like we sounded. We did not do anything, the same goes for today. We got together in rehearsal hall and made up a song, it sounds essentially the same as the record, except the mastering. I am not looking around saying, I want to sound like this or sound like that, I want to sound like things on the radio. I really can’t get into that. *starts laughing* Because than I would have to listen to the radio. I would rather kill myself *big laughter*

WORTRAUB: Nothing new all right. Rather, the sound of the record is very sixties-like. How did you get those influences on there?
David: That’s what we sound like. A couple of real 60s tunes in there. Like „Plenty of music“. A lot of our influences are 60s, like when we were kids. When we were kids, the English bands at that time and the girl groups in the States, from New York, like the Shangri-Las and the Ronnettes and the Kinks and the Rolling Stones and the Animals, you know. Those were the bands that inspired me when I was a kid, and Syl as well. Those influences will always be part of my DNA, even though it is really subconscious at this point. I write a song with Syl and then realize, I know this song. Where have I heard this song? But really it is like ten songs I’ve heard before, all fighting for a spot in this song. It is hard to say where that comes from but it is just part of your subconscious I think. It is not like I consciously want to sound like this.

WORTRAUB: But wasn’t the idea of the Dolls not to sound like anything at the time, like anything recent?
David: Yeah, but we still have the same influences. In other words, I can’t even remember who another band was back then. Who was on the radio? It was like: we did not want to sound like that, we wanted to sound like what we sounded like. That is not saying, we did not have influences. You would have to have come from another planet not to have influences.

WORTRAUB: Well, I always figured that the MC5 were an influence on your sound?

David: They showed that it could be done. Not that we wanted to sound like the MC5 but definitely there were crazy guys in that band. That is another inspiration. I am not saying we weren’t inspired. I am saying that we did not try to hone our sound to fit some kind of format or something.

WORTRAUB: It sounded like energy, rough and powerful …
David: … yeah, and there is a high degree of amateurism. You cannot reproduce that. It is funny because I was talking to our guitar player about that. One day we were talking about that issue one day when we were writing songs. There are a lot of things you can go back and tap into in your life. Because every error in your life you transcended but it is still included in who you become. You transcend and include your whole life. But to recreate amateurness – amateur is probably not the right word – but that raw beginners feeling, it is impossible to do. And he said: yeah, except for Syl. Which is kind of like an in-joke for the band, which he seemed to have gotten.

WORTRAUB: Have you grown too old for the rebellion, for the punk attitude?
David: As far as the philosophy of the music and the lyrical content is concerned? Yeah, but the lyrics are much more insidious than just screaming. They are more subliminal. It just comes from trying on different techniques of being subversive in your life.

WORTRAUB: Different techniques? What is your latest then?
David: That is not really for me to say. If you enjoy the record, you will hear the record probably a number of times throughout your life. If you don’t like it, you will probably never hear it again. So that is the same thing as in the beginning, when we started. Certain people enjoyed the record, took all different kinds of things from it and still play it. So if there is people who feel like this with this record, they will kind of subtly get the message. What I see and find really stupid is between the art and commerce thing, how people are kind of told what to like, and how to think, told what is good. There are only few people who really think for themselves and make up their minds about what they are interested in and what they like. So there is kind of a lot of stuff about that in there. I get a lot of questions in these interviews like: you did not make a lot of money, so therefore you suck. It is like their whole mentality is about commerce and I am thinking: well, when you are fucking dying man, you are gonna realize that just chased a bucket all fucking life and missed the point of existence. So there is a lot of shit in there about existence. Like Van Gogh, he sucked. People seemed to like his paintings now, though.

WORTRAUB: Is that because he had a good PR going for him? Cutting off his ear?
David: I don’t know. I mean his paintings were all right. *mumbling* I could do better than that. *laughs* I was just giving him as an example, you know. There were so many people, when the Dolls first came out, that said, they suck. They can’t play. Their fucking music sucks. To me it was very musical. It was genius music. And now the same people say, I was there, they were great. It is fantastic. History is an illusion. I just found out, Columbus was a prick. He is the better example.

WORTRAUB: What do the New York Dolls bring to today’s music then?
David: Absolutely nothing. All music is divinely superfluous. If there is no music, I guess we wouldn’t know the difference. But there is so many superfluous things in the world and music is definitely one of them. I like the ridiculousness of it. You can live without it. Superfluous beauty.

WORTRAUB: So, it is purely aesthetic then? So, coming back to the show then, are you conscious of the aesthetic quality? The hair, the vintage clothes?
David: We were wearing vintage clothes when we met. That‘ s how we met each other. We did not sit down and take off our suits and said let’s get dressed up. The decision what to wear on stage was a personal decision. I did not tell anybody else what to wear.

WORTRAUB: What about the red dress show then?
David: The red patent leather? Well, me and Syl had written a song called „Red Patent Leather“ and we decided to use that as a motif for this one particular show. Apparently it is historical. Then we called Malcolm in London and said, you know, we want red patent leather pants. And then we decided, since everything was getting red, in this show, to put a communist flag behind us, let’s have a communist party. And apparently it was controversial. Communist party is kind of oxymoronic. We meant the party kind of party.

WORTRAUB: How do you feel about the influences you had in the 70s, being credited with spawning not only punk rock but also hair metal?
David: Isn’t it funny? It is like giving birth to Cane and Abel. At the same time. It is ridiculous, isn’t it. Giving birth to Cane and Abel. How many people claim the Dolls as their root inspiration? It’s funny, isn’t it. Put yourself in my shoes, how would you feel? Would you smoke a pipe and say *leans back, talks with British, sophisticated accent, very dramatic* „Oh yes, of course, I am very enthused to be such an important person“. It’s funny!

WORTRAUB: What do you do with it?
David: You can’t take it to the bank, if that is what you mean. What you do with it is … you try to be gracious about it.

WORTRAUB: No envy? Or are you glad that you did not have the Sex Pistols success?
David: I think, it is all good. Everything comes from somewhere. Seems like a logical progression. Of which I might be a part of. Perhaps the Dolls are perceived as being seminal because of the anarchic idea behind the music. But really it wasn’t so much an idea but really the way we sounded. It wasn’t like we got together and said, you know, let’s really piss people off. We were really trying to make people happy. We were trying to play in front of our peeps, make them dance and kiss and do all those things.

WORTRAUB: It wasn’t political then?
David: Where we come from, the East Village, which was like a hot bed of liberation movements and this and that. Various runs of different tribes. We kind of became the band for all of them. That is really what we were and then it got taken to a national and international stage.

WORTRAUB: Yeah, in punk history, England is really being credited with making punk into a political movement …
David: … yes, it became a movement. Let’s take this idea, we’ll take a cookie cutter and we’ll outline what this band is and then we will stomp out a hundred of them and put them in a uniform and then let them march. To me that is … what is the word … they are kind of doing, what they say they are against? They are against conformity but they are all conform. You know, what I mean? I find that amusing as well. I could get pissed off about, but then I would have a horrible life, if I was pissed off all the time. About silly things. Rock and Roll is silly. It has made my life vastly enriched, but it is so silly. And it has also given me a sense of the ridiculous that I can use every day in my perception of reality. Of what people are fighting about and this and that … it is all kind of nutty. It is a nutty world, isn’t it. And Rock and Roll is nice kind of anecdote to that, because it essentially agrees: yes, it is a nutty world. So let’s get dressed up and have some fun. Let’s not participate in *looks a little lost in thought*… whatever you want to call it.

WORTRAUB: Are you gonna get dressed up for the new record?
David: I am dressed up now. I dress what ever I want to dress up in every day. I don’t have any rules. If I had saved a costume from that time and was wearing it as we speak, it wouldn’t really be noticeable, would it. At that time it seemed outrageous but of course it has permeated society.

WORTRAUB: Did you hear about the Sex Pistols being awarded into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
David: No, I think the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is bullshit. These old fucks. They exploited the shit out of people and now as they are dead they continue to exploit them. Who gets the money? The artists don’t. Do they give you money to be in the Hall? You have to pay to be in the show, right? You would have to be fool to do that. The Sex Pistols are no fools. Like I was saying about conformity, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is worse than that.

WORTRAUB: I want to ask …
David: … I want to give you what you want. You just got to pry it out off me …

WORTRAUB: … well, I think I am getting what I want. Just this question: you did a cooperation with Bo Diddley on this record. He was provocative as well …
David: … he was a big influence on me and on rock and roll. We did a song of his on our first record, called „Pills“. And so we would always go see him, en masse, and so we got friendly with him. When we were recording our record he was playing at B.B.King’s, a club near where we were recording. Some of us went to see him and said we were making a record and would he be on it? And he said: I’m gonna be eating fish tomorrow. I ain’t got time for this bullshit. And we said: come on Bo, for God’s sake, don’t be such a fucking comaggio and he did come. He came by, we kind of shamed and coerced him … *laughs*

WORTRAUB: And you did have Michael Stipe and Iggy come by…
David: … me and Iggy, we are old pals. We had been doing shows together the Stooges and the Dolls, it is a good package. Back in the old days. Michael Stipe just kind of came by because he was in New York. He came by to watch us work and we kind of pulled him into the racket. He is a friend of Syls. He is a fan of the Dolls. I mean, I would be a fan of the Dolls, if I wasn’t in them. You might think otherwise, but the Dolls is really an intelligent creation. I know it is ridiculous as well, but it is ridiculously intelligent, eh, intelligently ridiculous. Not just: Baby, baby.

WORTRAUB: But it started out as fun. Drinking, drugs, music…
David: … well, that’s how life starts out. After you do your orals … isn’t that part of everything. You do not have to be in a band to do, right? Most people were doing it before there were bands to do it. They were doing it, when people were still wearing raccoon coats and singing through a megaphone. It is not about rock and roll. Rock and roll is a nice adjunct to what is occurring anyway. Tom Hulce was doing a lot of drinking in „Amadeus“. …

WORTRAUB: … He was actually the first rock and roll star of Europe…
David: … Tom Hulce, you mean? …

WORTRAUB: … no, Amadeus I mean … 

***talk drifts off to movies, then back to PR***

WORTRAUB: So, do you like to promotion aspect of doing a record?
David: I just love sitting around, talking to people going *imitates a reporter* „aren’t you angry that you are not rich?“ etc., etc., etc. I go like „huh!“ … it is an Orwellian fucking nightmare. I feel like I am in a fucking book by Kafka. The way I think, one in ten people I find has an idea of what reality is. Everyone else has got this – I don’t know where they got it from, television or where do they get this idea of what is life is about – commerce … ridiculous.

WORTRAUB: Which brings me to my last question. What do you think of creativity, with „American Idols“ dominating the charts?
David: I am not really concerned with it. I don’t pay attention to it. It is a big phenomenon but it is not my kind of music. I am not watching the show. I am not cognizant. I see on the posters, I hear people talking on the subway … I mean, there is a fucking war going on that is an insane fucking military-industrial complex fucking mis-adventure. Not to mention twenty million other things, and people are concerned with „American Idol“. How fucked up is that?